Awesome TS 2068 Music!
7 messages · 2008-01-03 → 2008-01-08 · Yahoo Group era · View archive on archive.org
Participants: Adam Trionfo, Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey, Fred, Exile In Paradise
Preserved from the Timex/Sinclair 2068 Yahoo Group (2001–2019), which is no longer online. Text reproduced from the archive.org archive; email addresses masked.
Messages
1. Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Adam Trionfo · Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:46:
I'm curious to hear some really good music that takes advantage of the Yamaha chip that the TS 2068 features and that the Spectrum doesn't have. Was there (is there) a TS 2068 demo scene? Were there some 2068 games that featured this chip? I know that once I get the Spectrum emulator I can check out some demos from that computer, but I'm quite interested in hearing some music and not just "beeps."
What else was the Yamaha chip used in?
How does the TS 2068 compare to the SID in the Commodore 64?
Adam
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2. Re: [ts2068] Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Fred · Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:45:
On 04/01/2008, at 10:46, Adam Trionfo wrote:
> I'm curious to hear some really good music that takes advantage of
> the Yamaha chip that the TS 2068 features and that the Spectrum
> doesn't have. Was there (is there) a TS 2068 demo scene?
Not as far as I know, but I'd love to be proven wrong!
> Were there some 2068 games that featured this chip?
I am sure there are some, and I also think that some games ported to
the Timex from the Spectrum had their sound switched to using the AY
instead of the beeper (e.g. 3D Deathchase).
> I know that once I get the Spectrum emulator I can check out some
> demos from that computer, but I'm quite interested in hearing some
> music and not just "beeps."
The Spectrum 128k and newer machines and clones all feature the same
sound chip as the Timex, so check out some of the demos for these
machines to get an idea of what is possible on the Timex.
The music is typically run from the interrupt routine which is 50Hz in
the Speccy and 60Hz on the TS2068, so music would not typically be
heard as intended if just ported directly.
AY Riders are a group that compose for the chip.
> What else was the Yamaha chip used in?
MSX, Atari ST, Gameboy, many arcade machines and loads more I believe.
> How does the TS 2068 compare to the SID in the Commodore 64?
I don't know much about the SID.
Fred
3. Re: [ts2068] Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Exile In Paradise · Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:56
On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 15:46 -0800, Adam Trionfo wrote:
>
> What else was the Yamaha chip used in?
> How does the TS 2068 compare to the SID in the Commodore 64?
The Wikipedia page on it has a list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AY-3-8912
SID info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6581
By the way, I would like to say howdy to the entire group!
I just joined this week, after successfully booting my shiny
new-to-me TS2068 with less than 10 hours of runtime on it.
I know next to nothing about the TS2068, except that its
Z80 based, somehow related to the legendary Spectrum, and
uses a crazy 15VDC pin-negative power supply (missing from
the closet-dwelling box I was given).
I was a Tandy kid in 1981, then became a Commodore kid in
1982. My modified C64c still boots and runs to this day.
So, I am pretty well versed on the intricacies of the SID,
without even cracking my SAMS Programmer's Reference Guide.
I think overall I would have to give it to the 6581
as the better chip of the two, for several reasons:
Mixed analog and digital circuitry on chip, allowed for
a lot more "musical" control over the output.
The Sustain and Release stages of the envelope generator
aren't fixed/frozen on the 6581, allowing for much finer
control over the sound shaping without tying the CPU down
to manually yanking registers around.
The 8912 has more envelope choices, but the envelopes
themselves are limited to fixed sustain and release stages
and only a handful of functions, like invert.
And, I don't see the insanely-useful filtering that the
6581 has, which could all mix into the ADSR envelopes in
very useful ways, including some "dirtying" of the output
sound to reduce some of the "booper" effect of a pure
digitial chip like the 8912 or other console/arcade
sound chips at the time.
Overall, the 8912 specs out more like a traditional
3-voice sound effect generator of the era, and the 6581
was actually designed more like a 3-voice music
synthesizer, which makes sense given its designer.
For digital samples, the 8912 would have been the
hands-down winner with 8-bit (plus intermediates)
compared to the 6581's 4-bit sample reproduction
(achieved by turning the chip volume on then back on to
one of the various 4-bit volume levels) ... *if* anyone
could have programmed it to actually play them (at the
time) the way that was finally done on the MSX.
So, I would say that the SID was the "better" chip,
from a musical and technical standpoint, and the real-world
usage bore that out... there are many thousands of times
more music programmed for the 6581 (including digital music
and effects such as the voice of Elvin Atombender in Epyx
Impossible Mission, as well as the homebrew demos of the
era) than for the 8912.
But, that's also a liability: the graphics and sound on
the C64 are probably what marginalized it into a primarily
games machine (even if it had the GEOS GUI in 1986?!?)
while practically every other micro of the era (except maybe
the Coleco Adam) was seen as a more serious machine and
used for more serious purpose.
So, that's my take from the Commodore side of the fence.
As I get deeper into messing with the TS, I am fully
prepared for it to make me a liar, since, admittedly,
I don't know much more about its sound than what's on
the Wikipedia page linked above, contrasted to 25 years
experience listening to hundreds of different SID chips
reproduce songs.
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
No discipline is ever requisite to force attendance upon
lectures which are really worth the attending.
-- Adam Smith, "The Wealth of Nations"
4. RE: Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Adam Trionfo · Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:27:
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey wrote:
>>
I think overall I would have to give it to the 6581
as the better chip of the two, for several reasons:
>>
I'm not going to go over all of your reasons, but your argument is so cool. I read the Wikipedia pages that you refer to, and I don't really understand them. Which is fine. I like to listen to music; I don't know how to play it. You made great descriptions.
>>
Overall, the 8912 specs out more like a traditional
3-voice sound effect generator of the era, and the 6581
was actually designed more like a 3-voice music
synthesizer, which makes sense given its designer.
>>
My first computer was a C64. Used it through-out the eighties. When I first encountered the Atari 8-bit line I was surprised how at much better the C64 sounded. Then again, the Atari 8-bits are several years older than the C64. Though, I suppose, the Atari ST is several years NEWER than the C64 and the sound it produces isn't great.
>>
So, I would say that the SID was the "better" chip,
from a musical and technical standpoint,
>>
Demos on the C64 sure do sound good, I KNOW that. I'm still interested in Demos for the TS 2068, if anyone knows of any.
>>
As I get deeper into messing with the TS, I am fully
prepared for it to make me a liar,
>>
If you hear some great music in your explorations, please post about it.
Adam
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5. Re: [ts2068] RE: Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey · Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:34
On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 10:27 -0800, Adam Trionfo wrote:
> >>
> As I get deeper into messing with the TS, I am fully
> prepared for it to make me a liar,
> >>
>
> If you hear some great music in your explorations, please post about
> it.
Actually, I may have a good reason to learn a LOT more soon:
The Vectrex uses the same audio chip.
I am lining out notes for a homebrew Vectrex game, I will have to learn
to program the 8912 as part of writing the game.
I will know for sure at the end of that, because I will have to write a
load of small test and effects programs to "exercise" the chip, and to
find interesting sound FX for it.
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
i dont even know if it makes sense at all :) This is an
experimental patch for an experimental kernel :))
-- Ingo Molnar on linux-kernel
6. RE: Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Adam Trionfo · Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:02:
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey, on Mon 1/07/08 7:34 PM, wrote:
>>
Actually, I may have a good reason to learn a LOT more soon [about the TS 2068 sound chip]: The Vectrex uses the same audio chip.
>>
I don't remember the Vectrex having particularly good music. I played most games too on my Vectrex and multicart (when I had them, anyway).
I finally did run into some good music. It's on the TS 2068 Yahoo group. It's a tape magazine. I only loaded the menu (which has the music)-- I didn't play any of the games. It's a LONG URL, so I've used TinyURL:
http://tinyurl.com/22yndq
(or use the full URL:)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QPWCR5C0JVZFEcSPXaCB65lxuYMKsPVPvGNH0U7WXs-IHFtC3jsoYz4Tjr6FNTO12a42VfJI-9RkXZE3iMck6sW43Nhfmg/Software/TS2068-TC2068/Byte%20Power-February%2088.tzx.zip
>>
I will know for sure at the end of that, because I will have to write a
load of small test and effects programs to "exercise" the chip, and to
find interesting sound FX for it.
>>
Most of that should be able to be ported to the TS 2068, right?
Adam
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7. Re: [ts2068] RE: Awesome TS 2068 Music!
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey · Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:35
On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:02 -0800, Adam Trionfo wrote:
> I don't remember the Vectrex having particularly good music.
Yeah, the Vectrex is booper-ific which is why I didn't
expect loads from the TS2068 sound, but also keep in mind
the Vectrex had 1K of RAM... hard to do more than just quick
effects with that.
<snip>
> >>
> I will know for sure at the end of that, because I will have to write a
> load of small test and effects programs to "exercise" the chip, and to
> find interesting sound FX for it.
> >>
>
> Most of that should be able to be ported to the TS 2068, right?
Probably not.
The Vectrex is Motorola 6809 based.
Plus, I thought the TS2068 had music/SFX editing software?
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
I'm not afraid of death -- I just don't want to be there when
it happens.
-- Woody Allen