Digest Number 261
28 messages · 2005-04-26 → 2005-07-09 · Yahoo Group era · View archive on archive.org
Participants: James Diffendaffer, James the Animal Tamer, William McBrine, Jeff Burrell, Glen Goodwin, Jack Boatwright, Scott A. Rossell, Philip Kendall, r, Edwin Krampitz, Jr., Your Name, Louis Florit, Jarek Adamski
Preserved from the Timex/Sinclair 2068 Yahoo Group (2001–2019), which is no longer online. Text reproduced from the archive.org archive; email addresses masked.
Messages
1. RE: [ts2068] Digest Number 261
Scott A. Rossell · Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:38
I must admit my interest in Timex/Sinclair has waned greatly over the years.
I still have all of my T/S stuff (I just can't seem to part with them just
yet.) But I just don't know what to do with them either. My mindset goes
something like this:
Gee, I'd sure like to break out my 2068.
Why?
I loved the way it programmed with single key strokes and how it represents
a much simpler time in computers.
So? What can you do with it now?
I could program it.
To do what? What program hasn't already been written and rewritten to
version 10 on the PC's?
Yeah. But it was so much fun in the 80's.
Yeah, that's because that's all there was. Now we have PC's, Windows,
laptops, Palm Pilots, Pocket PC's, cell phones, portable media players,
Gameboys, Xbox, Playstation 2, Gamecube...Heck, even your refrigerator has a
television in the door!
Ok, I could play the old T/S games!
You can do that on an emulator.
Fine! I could build a hardware project!
Sure, but unless it's a robot, your really just trying to get the T/S up to
today's hardware standards with expanded memory, video, or storage, right?!
Crap! But I want to break out my 2068!
Right. Why?
I wrote this to illustrate my frustration, not to throw a damp rag on the
group. I'm not an engineer but I can handle a soldering iron well enough to
build the ZX81 kit and have it work the first time I turned it on. But now
what? I stay on this group to hear anything I can get that reminds me of
the old days. And often I get a nice little jewel. Thanks by the way! But
what can I do?
So, what am I up to (in answer to your question)? I just recently
soft-modded my Xbox and installed a larger hard drive. I keep my games on
the hard drive so I can access them instantly without having to load the
disc. I also just installed an Atari 800XL emulator on the Xbox. Seeing
the DOS 2.0S BASIC screen come up on my Xbox was a real thrill. I copy
comedy skits from Comedy Central off my DISH Network satellite and burn them
onto DVD's. And occasionally I go out wardriving with my IBM laptop using
Net Stumbler to see how many fat kats in my neighborhood have enough money
to setup their house with wireless networking but don't have the technical
know-how to simply enable encrypted security to prevent me from tapping into
their network from the street and surfing the web.
Now, if there was a serious effort to make a robot using a 2068 or a 2068
emulator for the Xbox.......
Either way, my heart jumps every time I see a message from the group in my
inbox. What will it be this time? I remember back in 1993 or so, I would
look for T/S web sites and find nothing. Now, there are several really nice
ones. But am I missing something? Where are all the NEW ideas? Don't get
me wrong, it's important to have resources for acquiring, maintaining, and
upgrading your T/S stuff. But where are the home automation projects, the
connecting a 2068 to a Global Positioning System device projects, the
robotic projects, the 2068 web server projects, or the car-mounted
2068/GPS/mp3 player/radio frequency web browser/restaurant & entertainment
database/e-mail projects?
My hope is that when this message hits the group, members from all over will
pipe in and tell us all about these very projects in the works somewhere
that I have never heard about. Or refer to a download of a PDF of an old
magazine article on exactly something I mentioned. Or maybe even someone
will say, "Hey! That's a great idea! Let's do that!"
I would love to see that!
Until then, I wait anxiously for the next message and whatever I can get.
Because the 2068 was an amazing computer and still represents (at least to
me) an amazing time in computer history. Where today can you get an
instant-on computer with a built-in programming language that connects to
your television for less than $200?! You can get close with an Xbox running
an emulator and a USB adapted keyboard! But you have to invalidate your
warranty to do it. And in the end you still don't have the 2068 keyboard.
23 years ago, the 2068 achieved something we just can't seem to do today.
Even if you factor in inflation, Dell's bottom of the barrel PC's don't
quite make the mark.
Come on you genius engineers out there! Come on you natural organizers!
Come on you techno pack rats! Let's see what you've got that's NEW and
imaginative. Let's see what's been lurking in the shadows of our minds
waiting to remind us of a time when doing something as simple as upgrading
your RAM meant, at the very least, that the use of a soldering iron was in
your immediate future. Let's tell the world that we have an instant-on,
media center personal computer connected to our home entertainment center
and when they ask how we liked paying $3,000 for a Windows Media Center PC,
we'll say, "Who said anything about Windows?"
-The End
2. Re: [ts2068] Digest Number 261
Philip Kendall · Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:12
On Tue, Apr 26, 2005 at 09:38:24AM -0700, Scott A. Rossell wrote:
>
> Now, if there was a serious effort to make [ ... ] a 2068 emulator for
> the Xbox.......
I believe Fuse runs on Xbox Linux.
Cheers,
Phil
--
BUFFY ANNE SUMMERS 1981-2001
BELOVED SISTER, DEVOTED FRIEND
SHE SAVED THE WORLD
A LOT Buffy: The Gift
3. RE: [ts2068] Digest Number 261
r · Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:53
Dear Mr. Rossell
absolutely
I could not agree more with your sentiments
I have just travelled from the UKto hong kong
overland through Iraq and afghanistan - I am sick
of meeting young people who think that becuase i
come from england I am rich and have my pockets
full of american money - theres a million
applications for computer technology and the
internet is surely a key to opening up education
opportunities for remote communities and local
languages - I have seen networks of expensive
pentium four based pcs in classrooms running
dodgy versions of windows that doesnt work
properly while trying to emulate the local
language character sets
If these thousands of young men (and women - I
did meet a few and very inteligent and wellspoken
in English they were too) are not offered the
opportunities available to students across the
world we will surely face dire consequences.
yours sicnerely
Roger Jowett
shhesh i cant even get broadband internet
connection and a telephone line here in hong
kong! PCCW eh?!
--- "Scott A. Rossell"
<[email]> wrote:
---------------------------------
I must admit my interest in Timex/Sinclair has
waned greatly over the years.
I still have all of my T/S stuff (I just can't
seem to part with them just
yet.) But I just don't know what to do with them
either. My mindset goes
something like this:
Gee, I'd sure like to break out my 2068.
Why?
I loved the way it programmed with single key
strokes and how it represents
a much simpler time in computers.
So? What can you do with it now?
I could program it.
To do what? What program hasn't already been
written and rewritten to
version 10 on the PC's?
Yeah. But it was so much fun in the 80's.
Yeah, that's because that's all there was. Now
we have PC's, Windows,
laptops, Palm Pilots, Pocket PC's, cell phones,
portable media players,
Gameboys, Xbox, Playstation 2, Gamecube...Heck,
even your refrigerator has a
television in the door!
Ok, I could play the old T/S games!
You can do that on an emulator.
Fine! I could build a hardware project!
Sure, but unless it's a robot, your really just
trying to get the T/S up to
today's hardware standards with expanded memory,
video, or storage, right?!
Crap! But I want to break out my 2068!
Right. Why?
I wrote this to illustrate my frustration, not to
throw a damp rag on the
group. I'm not an engineer but I can handle a
soldering iron well enough to
build the ZX81 kit and have it work the first
time I turned it on. But now
what? I stay on this group to hear anything I
can get that reminds me of
the old days. And often I get a nice little
jewel. Thanks by the way! But
what can I do?
So, what am I up to (in answer to your question)?
I just recently
soft-modded my Xbox and installed a larger hard
drive. I keep my games on
the hard drive so I can access them instantly
without having to load the
disc. I also just installed an Atari 800XL
emulator on the Xbox. Seeing
the DOS 2.0S BASIC screen come up on my Xbox was
a real thrill. I copy
comedy skits from Comedy Central off my DISH
Network satellite and burn them
onto DVD's. And occasionally I go out wardriving
with my IBM laptop using
Net Stumbler to see how many fat kats in my
neighborhood have enough money
to setup their house with wireless networking but
don't have the technical
know-how to simply enable encrypted security to
prevent me from tapping into
their network from the street and surfing the
web.
Now, if there was a serious effort to make a
robot using a 2068 or a 2068
emulator for the Xbox.......
Either way, my heart jumps every time I see a
message from the group in my
inbox. What will it be this time? I remember
back in 1993 or so, I would
look for T/S web sites and find nothing. Now,
there are several really nice
ones. But am I missing something? Where are all
the NEW ideas? Don't get
me wrong, it's important to have resources for
acquiring, maintaining, and
upgrading your T/S stuff. But where are the home
automation projects, the
connecting a 2068 to a Global Positioning System
device projects, the
robotic projects, the 2068 web server projects,
or the car-mounted
2068/GPS/mp3 player/radio frequency web
browser/restaurant & entertainment
database/e-mail projects?
My hope is that when this message hits the group,
members from all over will
pipe in and tell us all about these very projects
in the works somewhere
that I have never heard about. Or refer to a
download of a PDF of an old
magazine article on exactly something I
mentioned. Or maybe even someone
will say, "Hey! That's a great idea! Let's do
that!"
I would love to see that!
Until then, I wait anxiously for the next message
and whatever I can get.
Because the 2068 was an amazing computer and
still represents (at least to
me) an amazing time in computer history. Where
today can you get an
instant-on computer with a built-in programming
language that connects to
your television for less than $200?! You can get
close with an Xbox running
an emulator and a USB adapted keyboard! But you
have to invalidate your
warranty to do it. And in the end you still
don't have the 2068 keyboard.
23 years ago, the 2068 achieved something we just
can't seem to do today.
Even if you factor in inflation, Dell's bottom of
the barrel PC's don't
quite make the mark.
Come on you genius engineers out there! Come on
you natural organizers!
Come on you techno pack rats! Let's see what
you've got that's NEW and
imaginative. Let's see what's been lurking in
the shadows of our minds
waiting to remind us of a time when doing
something as simple as upgrading
your RAM meant, at the very least, that the use
of a soldering iron was in
your immediate future. Let's tell the world that
we have an instant-on,
media center personal computer connected to our
home entertainment center
and when they ask how we liked paying $3,000 for
a Windows Media Center PC,
we'll say, "Who said anything about Windows?"
-The End
---------------------------------
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4. Re: Digest Number 261
Edwin Krampitz, Jr. · Fri, 06 May 2005 14:02
What attracted me to the Sinclair world was (1) my desire to create
semitechnical and graphics programs for my own pleasure in BASIC (or
FORTRAN as an alternate, had BASIC not been available) and (2) the
cost and capabilities for the cost of the T/S 1000/ZX81 and T/S
2068. People tend to forget that the Sinclair computers had
excellent mathematical capabilities. Even some mainframes back then
didn't have the inverse trigonometric functions, for example, and
many were limited to 5-6 significant places in computations while the
Sinclairs could routinely handle 7-8.
There is nothing on the market today that I could conceivably buy
cheaply that will allow such programming capabilities. We have been
stuck with the horribly complex Windows/MS-DOS system by default.
This is great for the 99.99% of people who simply want to surf the
net and run commercial software, but those of us who were proficient
in an old computer language and simply wanted to use the knowledge in
an upgraded platform were left out.
I have long thought that the single-keystroke keyword feature of
Sinclair BASIC was highly useful and saved memory space and time and
keyboarding. The operating system (OS) also checked each line for
bugs upon entry, which was a useful feature not present in a lot of
other computers then and now. (How many times have you gotten a run
time debug message while surfing the web? I have, plenty of times.)
You will laugh, but I wish someone had come out with a PC like those
in use today but with an enhanced, instant-on, single-keystroke
keyword BASIC as the operating system: that is, a super-Sinclair
BASIC OS.
One thing that can be said about Windows and current PCs is that the
OS and most available software undoubtedly waste huge amounts of
memory. One advantage to learning to program the Sinclairs was that
you figured out how to do what you wanted elegantly, in the minimum
memory to save space and execution time. In an era of computers
coming from the factory with multi-GHz processors and 0.5 or 1 GB
RAM, this art has been lost on today's younger programmers.
All right, all of you can quit laughing. I'm off the soapbox now.--Ed
5. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Fri, 06 May 2005 18:14
--- In [email], "Edwin Krampitz, Jr."
<ekrampitzjr@h...> wrote:
> I have long thought that the single-keystroke keyword feature of
> Sinclair BASIC was highly useful and saved memory space and time and
> keyboarding.
> The operating system (OS) also checked each line for
> bugs upon entry, which was a useful feature not present in a lot of
> other computers then and now.
I found I typed faster without that but I type 60+ WPM. Typing class
was manditory where I went to school. Everyone learned before they
entered high school.
For an average or poor typist I'm sure it's a big help saving
keystrokes and typos. Computers that didn't use single keystroke
entry still tokenized the keywords down to one or two bytes.
Tokenizing commands doesn't just save space it lets the interpreter
look up 1 or 2 byte tokens in a table to know what address to execute
in ROM. It's hundreds of times faster than comparing strings and by
patching the table you can easily add new Basic keywords or modify
existing ones.
FYI, several computers used the single keystroke feature to avoid
adding a tokenizer to the ROM. It helped them use a smaller, cheaper ROM.
I typed in a lot of programs from books and magazines as a kid.
Having to look at the monitor after every line to see if there is an
error slows you down if you are a good typist. It's definately better
than typing RUN, using the program for 15+ minutes and then having it
crash when you are almost through a game or go to save your data.
In a way, compilers offer the best of both worlds. The entire program
can be entered without syntax checking and then advanced checking
including type checking is done on the entire program before you run
it. However, it takes much longer to recompile than to type RUN or
CONTINUE.
> (How many times have you gotten a run
> time debug message while surfing the web? I have, plenty of times.)
> You will laugh, but I wish someone had come out with a PC like those
> in use today but with an enhanced, instant-on, single-keystroke
> keyword BASIC as the operating system: that is, a super-Sinclair
> BASIC OS.
Most of the run time errors I see on the web are not preventable in
this manner... I wish it were that easy though.
> One thing that can be said about Windows and current PCs is that the
> OS and most available software undoubtedly waste huge amounts of
> memory.
Microsoft needs to look up the word refactoring. They supposedly put
a lot of money into that but I think most programmers spent the time
justifying why they reinvented the wheel rather than rebuilding around
an existing one.
> One advantage to learning to program the Sinclairs was that
> you figured out how to do what you wanted elegantly, in the minimum
> memory to save space and execution time. In an era of computers
> coming from the factory with multi-GHz processors and 0.5 or 1 GB
> RAM, this art has been lost on today's younger programmers.
Um, I'm not sure I'd refer to it as elegant. Concise, compact,
packed, highly optimized... sometimes to the point of being difficult
if not impossible to understand.
Later Basics like on the Amiga let you name subroutines rather than
use line numbers (which weren't required at all). Subroutine
parameters, return values, data structures, meaningfull variable
names... all are sooooo much better.
The OS-9 and FLEX operating systems for the Tandy CoCo had BASICs with
similar features but they were compiler based. I think CP/M also had
something similar.
What's most important is that it made people think 'outside the box'.
It has made me a much better coder and I don't know how many times
I've come up with something that saves hundreds lines of code only to
have younger programmers (post 8 bit) stare blankly at it in disbelief
because they 'don't think that way'. I learned to look for a better
way to do things instead of just sitting down and typing for hours.
I've converted a few of the old Basic games to C and the endless
GOTOs, multipurpose variables and what not don't translate well at
times. I've also found unreachable code, code that doesn't work as
intended or at all and the programmer may not have even realized it.
> All right, all of you can quit laughing. I'm off the soapbox now.--Ed
I won't laugh at you. I still write some stuff on the old beasts just
for fun. While I wouldn't trade my C/C++ compiler for anything
there's nothing like typing for a minute or two, typing RUN and
getting a final result.
A lot of the things I used to do in Basic I do on a spreadsheet these
days. I could have back then but where would the fun have been in
that? ;)
6. Re: Digest Number 261
James the Animal Tamer · Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:25
> I have long thought that the single-keystroke keyword feature of
> Sinclair BASIC was highly useful and saved memory space and time and
> keyboarding.
*chuckles* I was trying to enter a BASIC program last night into my
TS2068, and cursing at having to squint at the d---d keys instead of
pseudo-touch-typing. I can type CHR$ faster than I can find the
caption hiding on the keyboard somewhere, determine that my cursor is
in the right mode (and hit the Space Cadet Shifters if it isn't), and
then hit the "one key."
I s'pose after a long period you get used to it, and can touch type all
the keywords...
7. Re: [ts2068] Re: Digest Number 261
William McBrine · Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:37:
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, James Diffendaffer wrote:
> James... I hear ya. It's definately hard to adapt if you're used to
> typing out keywords and you can type with any speed.
...which you can't do anyway on the ZX80, ZX81, TS1000, ZX Spectrum or
TS1500. I think _that's_ why the feature was introduced: not to save ROM
space, but to make it easier to type on these, um, "budget" keyboards.
The 2068's keyboard is a lot better, although it's still a "chicklet"
style. It's been a while, but ISTR that I was actually able to achieve
decent speeds on it. This was in sharp contrast to my other chicklet
keyboard, the original TRS-80 CoCo, which was nigh-unusable.
It's funny that they went to so much trouble to minimize the cost of the
keyboards, when it's one of the cheapest components of computers nowadays.
But I guess that's only due to today's economies of scale, plus simplified
designs for these "full-size" keyboards. (Me, I paid $60 for a Unicomp
keyboard, but I'm weird like that.)
>> I s'pose after a long period you get used to it, and can touch type all
>> the keywords...
Absolutely. I did, though the skill has since atrophied.
--
William McBrine <[email]>
8. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:35
James... I hear ya. It's definately hard to adapt if you're used to
typing out keywords and you can type with any speed.
To repeat what I said once before... the single-keystroke keyword
feature actually saves no program space. Other computers parse the
lines and tokenize them once you hit return.
The single keystroke "feature" was a way of saving ROM space on the
first Sinclair computers thus making them cheaper. I can't remember
if it was later Spectrums or CPCs that added a parser.
I think non-typists love the single keystroke entry and touch typists
hate it.
There is a replacement spectrum ROM with a tokenizer but the 2068 is
different.
http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/index.htm
--- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
<emucompboy@y...> wrote:
> > I have long thought that the single-keystroke keyword feature of
> > Sinclair BASIC was highly useful and saved memory space and time and
> > keyboarding.
>
> *chuckles* I was trying to enter a BASIC program last night into my
> TS2068, and cursing at having to squint at the d---d keys instead of
> pseudo-touch-typing. I can type CHR$ faster than I can find the
> caption hiding on the keyboard somewhere, determine that my cursor is
> in the right mode (and hit the Space Cadet Shifters if it isn't), and
> then hit the "one key."
>
> I s'pose after a long period you get used to it, and can touch type all
> the keywords...
9. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:14
--- In [email], William McBrine <wmcbrine@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, James Diffendaffer wrote:
>
> > James... I hear ya. It's definately hard to adapt if you're used to
> > typing out keywords and you can type with any speed.
>
> ...which you can't do anyway on the ZX80, ZX81, TS1000, ZX Spectrum or
> TS1500. I think _that's_ why the feature was introduced: not to save
ROM
> space, but to make it easier to type on these, um, "budget" keyboards.
The TRS-80 Model 1 had a good keyboard but when it first came out with
one 4K ROM and it had Level 1 basic and NO tokenizer.
The ZX80 had a 4K ROM. Look how large the parser/tokenizer is in the
GOSH WONDERFUL ROM. 228 lines of assembly and probably almost as many
bytes... and that doesn't include the logic to call the tokenizer.
Why they didn't add one after going beyond 4K... who knows. I suppose
because people were used to it and Sinclair thought they could put the
space to better use.
> style. It's been a while, but ISTR that I was actually able to achieve
> decent speeds on it. This was in sharp contrast to my other chicklet
> keyboard, the original TRS-80 CoCo, which was nigh-unusable.
I had a CoCo... as long as I cleaned my keyboard on a regular basis I
didn't have trouble. I still replaced the keyboard within about a year.
Chicklet keyboards had to be the dumbest idea ever... possibly 2nd
only to the membrane keyboard. No machine in the US survived long
with one. The CoCo lasted the longest but they had their own stores.
Why people tolerated it in Europe I'll never understand.
10. Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
Jeff Burrell · Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:49:
I think the major reason for the tokenize keyboard was to save room in the ROM. The keyboard tokens didn't allow the user to misspell keywords and also allowed the input routines to enforce some of the syntax rules. It also allowed pre-tokenizing - see the key tables in the appendices of the manuals. As I remember, the ZX-81 would go to "K", "L", or whatever mode based on the previous keystroke(s). This made syntax checking much easier since the firmware had a constrained set of options to filter.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
11. Re: Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
James the Animal Tamer · Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:04
The Aquarius Home Computer (aka Mattel Aquarius) had an 8K OS ROM
(with a separate character generator), and a keyboard that could be
typed on (and I'll admit that it's the worst chiclet keyboard in
Christendom).
I'm still thinking that allowing a user to type would have been a
better decision, even if, say, some music functions were lost and
hade to be POKEd or OUTed.
--- In [email], Jeff Burrell <jburrell7@y...> wrote:
> I think the major reason for the tokenize keyboard was to save room
in the ROM. The keyboard tokens didn't allow the user to misspell
keywords and also allowed the input routines to enforce some of the
syntax rules. It also allowed pre-tokenizing - see the key tables in
the appendices of the manuals. As I remember, the ZX-81 would go
to "K", "L", or whatever mode based on the previous keystroke(s).
This made syntax checking much easier since the firmware had a
constrained set of options to filter.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
12. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
Glen Goodwin · Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:01
I did a lot of programming on the ZX81 back in the old
days before "big" keyboards were common and affordable,
and I can tell you that the tokens save a huge
amount of time when using a membrane keyboard ;-)
Glen
0/0
James the Animal Tamer wrote:
> The Aquarius Home Computer (aka Mattel Aquarius) had an 8K OS ROM
> (with a separate character generator), and a keyboard that could be
> typed on (and I'll admit that it's the worst chiclet keyboard in
> Christendom).
>
> I'm still thinking that allowing a user to type would have been a
> better decision, even if, say, some music functions were lost and
> hade to be POKEd or OUTed.
>
>
>
> --- In [email], Jeff Burrell <jburrell7@y...> wrote:
> > I think the major reason for the tokenize keyboard was to save room
> in the ROM. The keyboard tokens didn't allow the user to misspell
> keywords and also allowed the input routines to enforce some of the
> syntax rules. It also allowed pre-tokenizing - see the key tables in
> the appendices of the manuals. As I remember, the ZX-81 would go
> to "K", "L", or whatever mode based on the previous keystroke(s).
> This made syntax checking much easier since the firmware had a
> constrained set of options to filter.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Sports
> > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>
>
>
>
>
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>
13. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tolkienized Keyboard
Jack Boatwright · Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:50:
I thought the Tolkienized keyboard was for playing The Hobbit....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Goodwin" <[email]>
To: <[email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
>I did a lot of programming on the ZX81 back in the old
> days before "big" keyboards were common and affordable,
> and I can tell you that the tokens save a huge
> amount of time when using a membrane keyboard ;-)
>
> Glen
> 0/0
>
>
> James the Animal Tamer wrote:
>> The Aquarius Home Computer (aka Mattel Aquarius) had an 8K OS
>> ROM
>> (with a separate character generator), and a keyboard that
>> could be
>> typed on (and I'll admit that it's the worst chiclet keyboard
>> in
>> Christendom).
>>
>> I'm still thinking that allowing a user to type would have been
>> a
>> better decision, even if, say, some music functions were lost
>> and
>> hade to be POKEd or OUTed.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In [email], Jeff Burrell <jburrell7@y...>
>> wrote:
>> > I think the major reason for the tokenize keyboard was to
>> save room
>> in the ROM. The keyboard tokens didn't allow the user to
>> misspell
>> keywords and also allowed the input routines to enforce some of
>> the
>> syntax rules. It also allowed pre-tokenizing - see the key
>> tables in
>> the appendices of the manuals. As I remember, the ZX-81 would
>> go
>> to "K", "L", or whatever mode based on the previous
>> keystroke(s).
>> This made syntax checking much easier since the firmware had a
>> constrained set of options to filter.
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------
>> > Yahoo! Sports
>> > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>> * Visit your group "ts2068
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ts2068>" on the web.
>>
>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> [email]
>>
>> <mailto:[email]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>>
>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>> of Service
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "ts2068" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
14. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tolkienized Keyboard
Your Name · Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:05
Hobbit, wasn't that a Russian version (yea, I know ya ment the game)?
... I think the ts1000 & 2068 keyboard is the greatest thing that ever
was 'cause I don't spel to wel.
Ken Harbit
[email]
Jack Boatwright wrote:
>I thought the Tolkienized keyboard was for playing The Hobbit....
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Glen Goodwin" <[email]>
>To: <[email]>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
>
>
>
>
>>I did a lot of programming on the ZX81 back in the old
>>days before "big" keyboards were common and affordable,
>>and I can tell you that the tokens save a huge
>>amount of time when using a membrane keyboard ;-)
>>
>>Glen
>>0/0
>>
>>
>>James the Animal Tamer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The Aquarius Home Computer (aka Mattel Aquarius) had an 8K OS
>>>ROM
>>>(with a separate character generator), and a keyboard that
>>>could be
>>>typed on (and I'll admit that it's the worst chiclet keyboard
>>>in
>>>Christendom).
>>>
>>>I'm still thinking that allowing a user to type would have been
>>>a
>>>better decision, even if, say, some music functions were lost
>>>and
>>>hade to be POKEd or OUTed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In [email], Jeff Burrell <jburrell7@y...>
>>>wrote:
>>> > I think the major reason for the tokenize keyboard was to
>>>save room
>>>in the ROM. The keyboard tokens didn't allow the user to
>>>misspell
>>>keywords and also allowed the input routines to enforce some of
>>>the
>>>syntax rules. It also allowed pre-tokenizing - see the key
>>>tables in
>>>the appendices of the manuals. As I remember, the ZX-81 would
>>>go
>>>to "K", "L", or whatever mode based on the previous
>>>keystroke(s).
>>>This made syntax checking much easier since the firmware had a
>>>constrained set of options to filter.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------------------------------
>>> > Yahoo! Sports
>>> > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>
>>> * Visit your group "ts2068
>>><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ts2068>" on the web.
>>>
>>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> [email]
>>>
>>><mailto:[email]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>>>of Service
>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>> a.. Visit your group "ts2068" on the web.
>>
>> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> [email]
>>
>> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>>of Service.
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
15. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tokenized Keyboard
Jeff Burrell · Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:31:
Glen;
I too wrote a lot on my little black doorstop and I agree that the tokenized keyboard was much better than having to type in the commands letter by letter. I could touch type pretty fast those days and I would have gone insane two-fingering it on that keyboard, which bye-the-bye was the absolute, honest-to-goodness, with out a doubt, inarguably, undoubtably WORST feechur of the ZX81. I could even tolerate the occasional crashes from wobbly RAM packs -BUT THAT KEYBOARD!!!!! Even the 2068 chicklet keyboard was fantastic by comparison.
---------------------------------
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items.
16. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tolkienized Keyboard
Glen Goodwin · Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:51
Jack Boatwright wrote:
> I thought the Tolkienized keyboard was for playing The Hobbit....
Arrrrrrrgh! Nice pun, Jack!
Glen
0/0
17. Re: Digest Number 261
James the Animal Tamer · Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:59
The TS2068 I got on EBay had an odd board in its cartridge port. The
board says "Larken" something or other, and has a 16K EPROM in it, that
seems to have the Specu... er, Spectrum ROM on it.
If I had an EPROM eraser and burner**, s'pose I grabbed that
replacement ROM and burned it... I wonder if anyone's done that, or if
it's an "emulator only" ROM image*
*James remembers the VZemu group -- plenty of new apps made, which
won't run on the original hardware, but run just fine in the emulators).
**I could make a ham sandwich if I had some ham if I had some bread.
--- In [email], "James Diffendaffer"
<jdiffendaffer@y...> wrote:
>
> There is a replacement spectrum ROM with a tokenizer but the 2068 is
> different.
> http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/index.htm
18. Re: [ts2068] Re: Digest Number 261
William McBrine · Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:44:
On 7/6/05, James the Animal Tamer <[email]> wrote:
> The TS2068 I got on EBay had an odd board in its cartridge port. The
> board says "Larken" something or other, and has a 16K EPROM in it,
> that seems to have the Specu... er, Spectrum ROM on it.
That's the Larken DOS cartridge. I have one. Its main purpose was to
support a companion disk controller card that plugged into the rear
expansion connector. But it also had a spare slot for a Spectrum ROM.
The ROM is very slightly modified from the standard one; I forget how.
Anyway, you boot up into Spectrum mode by holding down (I think) the
'K' key while powering up. The disk controller is supported in
Spectrum mode as well as 2068 mode.
I haven't tried the cartridge without the disk controller. I suspect
it will work, just as a Spectrum emulator; but I'm not gonna try it.
> If I had an EPROM eraser and burner**, s'pose I grabbed that
> replacement ROM and burned it...
...and? For what?
19. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Thu, 07 Jul 2005 05:54
I think the ROM is supposed to work in a real machine but you could
run it under an emulator. That way you could type the program in on
the emulator, save it to a tape image, convert it to a wave file and
load it on the real thing. If MESS lets you past text in you could
even edit it in whatever PC text editor you liked. If the ROM is
spectrum only that's okay too since the 2068 can read it's tapes.
I seem to remember there being a difference in the sound hardware
between the spectrum and 2068. That may be part of the difference
between the spectrum ROM and the 2068 spectrum emulator ROM.
--- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
<emucompboy@y...> wrote:
> If I had an EPROM eraser and burner**, s'pose I grabbed that
> replacement ROM and burned it... I wonder if anyone's done that, or if
> it's an "emulator only" ROM image*
>
> *James remembers the VZemu group -- plenty of new apps made, which
> won't run on the original hardware, but run just fine in the emulators).
>
> --- In [email], "James Diffendaffer"
> <jdiffendaffer@y...> wrote:
> >
> > There is a replacement spectrum ROM with a tokenizer but the 2068 is
> > different.
> > http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/index.htm
20. Re: [ts2068] Re: Digest Number 261
Louis Florit · Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:24:
> I was thinking of grabbing the "Gosh Wow" replacement image -- the
> one that lets you type BASIC keywords instead of hunt 'n' pecking
> them on the Space Cadet keyboard.
Question, does anyone have a mod that will allow a PS/2 keyboard to be
used with the 2068? That'd be a useful upgrade for someone doing the
above rom swap.
L
--
Louis Florit
AIM: lflorit MSN:[email] Y!: indygolunaria
21. Re: Digest Number 261
James the Animal Tamer · Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:19
--- In [email], William McBrine <wmcbrine@g...> wrote:
> On 7/6/05, James the Animal Tamer <emucompboy@y...> wrote:
>
> > The TS2068 I got on EBay had an odd board in its cartridge port.
The
> > board says "Larken" something or other, and has a 16K EPROM in it,
> > that seems to have the Specu... er, Spectrum ROM on it.
> That's the Larken DOS cartridge. I have one. Its main purpose was to
> support a companion disk controller card that plugged into the rear
> expansion connector. But it also had a spare slot for a Spectrum
ROM.
This board has only the one socket on it, and it's filled by the
27128 EPROM.
> The ROM is very slightly modified from the standard one; I forget
how.
> Anyway, you boot up into Spectrum mode by holding down (I think) the
> 'K' key while powering up. The disk controller is supported in
> Spectrum mode as well as 2068 mode.
Without holding down any keys, it'll first boot the TS2068, then
it'll go to the Spectrum EPROM, so I'm thinking this isn't a normal
Larken disk interface cart.
> > If I had an EPROM eraser and burner**, s'pose I grabbed that
> > replacement ROM and burned it...
> ...and? For what?
I was thinking of grabbing the "Gosh Wow" replacement image -- the
one that lets you type BASIC keywords instead of hunt 'n' pecking
them on the Space Cadet keyboard.
22. Re: Digest Number 261
James the Animal Tamer · Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:22
Oh, you know me. I'm always looking for another computer to emulate.
I am coming to believe that the TS2068 is adequately emulated, so the
only thing I need to do is to digitize these tapes I got on EBay.
*You see James start looking for the Spectravideo SV328 club*
--- In [email], "James Diffendaffer"
<jdiffendaffer@y...> wrote:
> I think the ROM is supposed to work in a real machine but you could
> run it under an emulator. That way you could type the program in on
> the emulator, save it to a tape image, convert it to a wave file and
> load it on the real thing. If MESS lets you past text in you could
> even edit it in whatever PC text editor you liked. If the ROM is
> spectrum only that's okay too since the 2068 can read it's tapes.
>
> I seem to remember there being a difference in the sound hardware
> between the spectrum and 2068. That may be part of the difference
> between the spectrum ROM and the 2068 spectrum emulator ROM.
>
23. Re: [ts2068] PS/2 keyboard interface
Jarek Adamski · Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:53
Cytowanie Louis Florit <[email]>:
> Question, does anyone have a mod that will allow a PS/2
> keyboard to be used with the 2068? That'd be a useful
> upgrade for someone doing the above rom swap.
Well, I'm still under development with YAMOD.ZXINPUT...
Hmmm, too many things to do.
--
Jarek Adamski
24. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:31
--- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
<emucompboy@y...> wrote:
> *You see James start looking for the Spectravideo SV328 club*
I *think* there's an emulator for that too.
25. Re: [ts2068] Re: Sinclair Tolkienized Keyboard
Jack Boatwright · Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:15:
> Jack Boatwright wrote:
>> I thought the Tolkienized keyboard was for playing The
>> Hobbit....
>
> Arrrrrrrgh! Nice pun, Jack!
>
> Glen
> 0/0
I thought so too, thanks.
Jack
26. Re: Digest Number 261
James the Animal Tamer · Fri, 08 Jul 2005 22:13
--- In [email], "James Diffendaffer"
<jdiffendaffer@y...> wrote:
> --- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
> <emucompboy@y...> wrote:
> > *You see James start looking for the Spectravideo SV328 club*
>
>
> I *think* there's an emulator for that too.
*You see James start looking for the Laser 3000 club -- or the IQ
Unlimited club*
Then again, if there aren't any TS2068 emulators that run under Windows
other than MESS...
27. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:31
--- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
<emucompboy@y...> wrote:
> *You see James start looking for the Laser 3000 club -- or the IQ
> Unlimited club*
I don't think there is an IQ Unlimited emulator or club for that
matter. I did always want to check one out. They are pretty cheap on
ebay... not CoCo cheap but under $50. I think there might even be one
for sale there now.
> Then again, if there aren't any TS2068 emulators that run under Windows
> other than MESS...
There was a beta version supposedly available for download. That
doesn't mean you shouldn't write one.
28. Re: Digest Number 261
James Diffendaffer · Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:28
--- In [email], "James Diffendaffer"
<jdiffendaffer@y...> wrote:
> --- In [email], "James the Animal Tamer"
> <emucompboy@y...> wrote:
>
> > *You see James start looking for the Laser 3000 club -- or the IQ
> > Unlimited club*
>
> I don't think there is an IQ Unlimited emulator or club for that
> matter.
Come to think of it... I don't think there was any software for it
except what came with it. Not exactly a lot to emulate.