Digest Number 266
5 messages · 2005-05-04 → 2005-05-05 · Yahoo Group era · View archive on archive.org
Participants: Scott A. Rossell, James Diffendaffer, Jack Boatwright, r, Jeff Burrell
Preserved from the Timex/Sinclair 2068 Yahoo Group (2001–2019), which is no longer online. Text reproduced from the archive.org archive; email addresses masked.
Messages
1. RE: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
Scott A. Rossell · Wed, 4 May 2005 07:31:
Mr. Diffendaffer illustrates my point exactly with his stereotypical flaming
jab of "You obviously aren't totally familiar with..." It appears that
perhaps he shared some time in the Atari and Commodore tribes long enough to
foster a fierce belligerence at the mere mention of a possible deficiency in
his chosen devices of digital war. One might think I would be offended by
this, but on the contrary, I welcome it. It is a lost passion not seen
since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. No one cares
any more about comparisons of talents and skills and abilities because for
the most part we're all exactly the same as regards to the equipment we use
in our digital lives. The only remaining combatant tribes are the Linux and
Apple Mac's. And the battles waged between them and the Wintel's are so
pathetically anemic that it's hardly worth mentioning.
Sure, the 8-bit days are a bygone era, but what an amazing time. As Mr.
Burrell so adeptly captured the mentality of engineers and hobbyists who
took what in today's terms were nothing more than thermostat controllers and
turned them into fully functioning personal computers. And consider how
deeply involved one had to be in order to keep up with this crazy idea. You
had to know the intricate details of the sound and graphics capabilities if
you were ever to get anything out of them. And this inevitably lead to
discussions of comparisons. I never really cared which computer supposedly
had the best this or that since I could only afford the one I had, but I did
truly love to hear the tribal battles waged on BBS's and in the classroom.
These battles are no longer waged. BBS's are gone as well. And the
classroom is too busy screening for real weapons and trying to separate real
tribes from real war in our urban schools. But that's a different story
altogether.
Few could afford more than one choice of computer back then and those who
could still chose a tribe for it's system's advantages and capabilities. I
was partial to Atari's myself but could never afford them; hence the 2068.
Not much of a comparison in my estimation, but it was my wallet that made
the choice for me starting back with the ZX81. But I always found time to
get acquainted with the Atari every time I visited the local Sears.
Today's tribes are more like lifestyle choices. The Linux folks are mostly
eggheads who like to tinker for free. The Mac folks are basically
disinterested in tinkering and just want a pretty box that lets them write
e-mail. And the Wintel folks are a bunch of clones who think they're
individually special because they use a particular brand of video card.
Pathetic. There's no room for comparison here, much less for heated tribal
debate. It's like comparing apples to oranges. A Mac is an Apple, a Linux
is an orange...and a Wintel is a rotten banana. In the end nobody cares
because it just doesn't matter anymore.
So, Mr. Diffendaffer, by all means, please defend your Atari and Commodore
tribes to your heart's content. Although I prefer to avoid anonymous verbal
flaming, I honestly welcome the passion with which you share your opinion.
I'll stand corrected if it will make you feel better.
Oh, and as for the eZ80, I must agree it would have changed the world of
computing if it had come out in the late 80's, but of course that's like
saying the stealth fighter would have changed the outcome of the Vietnam
War. It should be no surprise to anyone that Zilog, a manufacturer of
micro-controllers in the 1980's is still a manufacturer of micro-controllers
today. The eZ80 is a really neat chip. I've got a trainer/programmer
collecting dust in my closet. Someday, if I ever need a web-capable power
switch for my crap Netgear router that keeps inexplicably going for an
out-of-body stroll, I'll break it out and get busy building one. Until
then...what's the point?
0 OK, O:1
2. Re: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
Jack Boatwright · Wed, 4 May 2005 16:21:
93 octane anyone?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott A. Rossell" <[email]>
To: <[email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
> Mr. Diffendaffer illustrates my point exactly with his
> stereotypical flaming
> jab of "You obviously aren't totally familiar with..." It
> appears that
> perhaps he shared some time in the Atari and Commodore tribes
> long enough to
> foster a fierce belligerence at the mere mention of a possible
> deficiency in
> his chosen devices of digital war. One might think I would be
> offended by
> this, but on the contrary, I welcome it. It is a lost passion
> not seen
> since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War.
> No one cares
> any more about comparisons of talents and skills and abilities
> because for
> the most part we're all exactly the same as regards to the
> equipment we use
> in our digital lives. The only remaining combatant tribes are
> the Linux and
> Apple Mac's. And the battles waged between them and the
> Wintel's are so
> pathetically anemic that it's hardly worth mentioning.
>
> Sure, the 8-bit days are a bygone era, but what an amazing time.
> As Mr.
> Burrell so adeptly captured the mentality of engineers and
> hobbyists who
> took what in today's terms were nothing more than thermostat
> controllers and
> turned them into fully functioning personal computers. And
> consider how
> deeply involved one had to be in order to keep up with this
> crazy idea. You
> had to know the intricate details of the sound and graphics
> capabilities if
> you were ever to get anything out of them. And this inevitably
> lead to
> discussions of comparisons. I never really cared which computer
> supposedly
> had the best this or that since I could only afford the one I
> had, but I did
> truly love to hear the tribal battles waged on BBS's and in the
> classroom.
> These battles are no longer waged. BBS's are gone as well. And
> the
> classroom is too busy screening for real weapons and trying to
> separate real
> tribes from real war in our urban schools. But that's a
> different story
> altogether.
>
> Few could afford more than one choice of computer back then and
> those who
> could still chose a tribe for it's system's advantages and
> capabilities. I
> was partial to Atari's myself but could never afford them; hence
> the 2068.
> Not much of a comparison in my estimation, but it was my wallet
> that made
> the choice for me starting back with the ZX81. But I always
> found time to
> get acquainted with the Atari every time I visited the local
> Sears.
>
> Today's tribes are more like lifestyle choices. The Linux folks
> are mostly
> eggheads who like to tinker for free. The Mac folks are
> basically
> disinterested in tinkering and just want a pretty box that lets
> them write
> e-mail. And the Wintel folks are a bunch of clones who think
> they're
> individually special because they use a particular brand of
> video card.
> Pathetic. There's no room for comparison here, much less for
> heated tribal
> debate. It's like comparing apples to oranges. A Mac is an
> Apple, a Linux
> is an orange...and a Wintel is a rotten banana. In the end
> nobody cares
> because it just doesn't matter anymore.
>
> So, Mr. Diffendaffer, by all means, please defend your Atari and
> Commodore
> tribes to your heart's content. Although I prefer to avoid
> anonymous verbal
> flaming, I honestly welcome the passion with which you share
> your opinion.
> I'll stand corrected if it will make you feel better.
>
> Oh, and as for the eZ80, I must agree it would have changed the
> world of
> computing if it had come out in the late 80's, but of course
> that's like
> saying the stealth fighter would have changed the outcome of the
> Vietnam
> War. It should be no surprise to anyone that Zilog, a
> manufacturer of
> micro-controllers in the 1980's is still a manufacturer of
> micro-controllers
> today. The eZ80 is a really neat chip. I've got a
> trainer/programmer
> collecting dust in my closet. Someday, if I ever need a
> web-capable power
> switch for my crap Netgear router that keeps inexplicably going
> for an
> out-of-body stroll, I'll break it out and get busy building one.
> Until
> then...what's the point?
>
> 0 OK, O:1
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ts2068/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
3. Re: Digest Number 266
James Diffendaffer · Wed, 04 May 2005 19:41
--- In [email], "Scott A. Rossell" <scott@r...> wrote:
> Mr. Diffendaffer illustrates my point exactly with his stereotypical
flaming
> jab of "You obviously aren't totally familiar with..." It appears
that
It wasn't a flame and you shouldn't try to make it one just because
someone disaggreed with you.
Lets see... I found this in your post.
fierce belligerence, war, combatant, tribal battles, etc...
Kinda heavy on the drama don't you think?
> perhaps he shared some time in the Atari and Commodore tribes long
enough to
> foster a fierce belligerence at the mere mention of a possible
deficiency in
> his chosen devices of digital war.
I just tried to state facts.
All these old machines had their own good, bad or not as good points.
Back then saying "oh yeah, well look what my computer can do that
yours can't so nya nya nya!!!" to your friend was the norm so I do
understand what you're saying.
(I should end this message here but I'm kinda bored today)
Look at the Atari graphics programing model and see what you have to
do to draw a complex background image. It's player missle graphics
were not as easy to use as true sprites but they were better than
using software only. Compare Atari and C64 game versions and you'll
see what I'm talking about. Even Wizzard of Wor (no complex
background) shows a big difference. I'm not saying the Atari was
bad... it just required more effort to get a similar result. A good
programmer could get a lot out of the Atari. Games like Atari Gyrus
showed just how good it could be with a little effort.
The C64 was cool but far from perfect. I didn't care for it's Basic
and having a disk drive slower than some cassette interfaces was a
crule hoax played on the consumer (it did create a nice market for
fast loaders). I've programmed a variant of the General Instruments
AY-3-8912. It was a pretty decent chip in it's day (hence the number
of machines that used it) but comparing it to a SID is almost like
comparing a Yugo to a Mercedes. The GI was a tone generator with some
wave form, attack, sustain and release settings plus a noise
generator. The SID was closer to a synthesizer on a chip.
Do a google search on C64 SID. See if you can find anyone else saying
Sinclair or any GI based machine had better sound than the SID. While
your at it, listen to some of the SID music files out there... there's
some neat stuff. Many of the musical instrument samples that were
used on the Amiga were actually generated on the SID.
What did I own?
I wanted an Atari (can you say games) but the family couldn't afford
one so I got Tandy Color Computer. No sprites, no sound synthesizer
chip... all software. Lame graphics compared to Atari or C64 but it
had one of the best built in Basics of the time and a killer CPU.
Decent sound required CPU time and assembly languge to drive the 6 bit
D/A converter (hence the lack of background music and sound in most
games). In later years programmers had worked out how to play music
or sounds in the background so games weren't so much like silent
movies. A GI based speech/sound board was available but recieved
little support. You could buy the Orchestra-90 with dual 8 bit D/A
converters. It could make about any sound you could sample... but
that required RAM and CPU time. Amiga sound without the support chip
to drive it. The CoCo 3 was much improved adding color maps, color
cycling, scrolling hardware and higher Res but still no sprites or
sound chip. The CoCo has an excellent MOD music file player and other
stuff you wouldn't expect on an 8 bit machine... not to mention a
machine without sprites or a sound synth chip.
FWIW, I actually moved to the Amiga instead of a CoCo 3.
The Sinclair computers followed a logical progression from one machine
to the next and didn't make any major leaps in architecture
enhancments. Paged memory isn't exactly a big leap. Sadly the Timex
Sinclair models all sported chicklet keyboards... something no
computer in the US market survived with for long.
> One might think I would be offended by
> this, but on the contrary, I welcome it. It is a lost passion not
seen
I don't think it's lost... just moved to "my ATi is better than your
NVidea" and "my AMD is better than your Intel". Sounds kinda lame
compared to wars between totally different architectures where a good
programmer could push the hardware closer to the limit and say "hah!
See, I can do it too! And can yours do this?"
I'm a firm believer that computer advances would have been faster if
the market hadn't focused on MS-DOS. Compatability came at the cost
of innovation. Everything shifted to speed improvement through MHz
and miniturazation.
Linux vs Wintel... argh... there's a war I could do without. The CoCo
group just wasted about a hudred messages on that (neither side
listening to the other). I use both thank you very much.
> Sure, the 8-bit days are a bygone era, but what an amazing time.
Agreed. Look how many different machines came out, each trying to one
up the other in some way or just finding a way to be the "cheapest
computer with color".
If you add all the models that didn't even get released because of the
computer fallout of the 80s... there was some cool stuff that almost
saw the light of day. Companies were working on GUIs, custom
graphics/sound chips, multi-cpu models... you name it. Look what AMD
and Intel are just releasing. Multi-CPU core chips.
Ah, what might have been.
> As Mr.
> Burrell so adeptly captured the mentality of engineers and
hobbyists who
> took what in today's terms were nothing more than thermostat
controllers and
Ouch! That's harsh!
I think they are a little better than that... at least they deserve
the distinktion of being called a programmable calculator CPU.
> turned them into fully functioning personal computers. And
consider how
> deeply involved one had to be in order to keep up with this crazy
idea. You
> had to know the intricate details of the sound and graphics
capabilities if
Too many programmers expect people to upgrade their computer rather
than improve their software these days.
> So, Mr. Diffendaffer, by all means, please defend your Atari and
Commodore
> tribes to your heart's content.
Wasn't being defensive... just trying to be factual.
> Although I prefer to avoid anonymous verbal
> flaming, I honestly welcome the passion with which you share your
opinion.
For someone that wants to avoid it you sure seem to write a lot.
;)
> micro-controllers in the 1980's is still a manufacturer of
micro-controllers
> today. The eZ80 is a really neat chip.
I like the ZWorld Rabbit better but it doesn't run Z80 code so it's
not something that would have been done in the 80s.
Zilog blew it by bailing on Z80 advancment when they tried to push the
Z8000 which flopped. They stopped being a major player on the desktop
at that point. They still make lots of cash on the Z80 and it's
decendants though.
> I've got a trainer/programmer
> collecting dust in my closet. Someday, if I ever need a web-capable
power
> switch for my crap Netgear router that keeps inexplicably going for
an
> out-of-body stroll, I'll break it out and get busy building one.
Until
> then...what's the point?
I hope your Netgear isn't as bad as my friend's Linksys. Eeewwww!
4. Re: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
r · Thu, 5 May 2005 03:22:
shish kebab Mr. Boatwright - i do hope i am not
mr deffendaffar as you say was that a spelling
mistake in one of my lengthy emails?
if you do break out your ez80 tcp ip trainer
programmer please explain to me just what it is
capable of as i have tried the zilog office here
in hong kong and just get very little / no
information apart form a link to a set of
websites that have links back to the zilog
website!
if you could have a look at how much the postage
would be from where you are to where i am in hong
kong and let me know ... I'd love to hear from
you - send me an email please!
surely the DMA in the MB-02+ interface takes the
spectrum to the edge of light speed and the
quazar 24mhz accelerator for the SAm coupé will
push MGT's wee baby thru the black hole of
extinction into the nebula of possibility...!
--- Jack Boatwright <[email]>
wrote:
---------------------------------
93 octane anyone?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott A. Rossell"
<[email]>
To: <[email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
> Mr. Diffendaffer illustrates my point exactly
with his
> stereotypical flaming
> jab of "You obviously aren't totally familiar
with..." It
> appears that
> perhaps he shared some time in the Atari and
Commodore tribes
> long enough to
> foster a fierce belligerence at the mere
mention of a possible
> deficiency in
> his chosen devices of digital war. One might
think I would be
> offended by
> this, but on the contrary, I welcome it. It is
a lost passion
> not seen
> since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end
of the Cold War.
> No one cares
> any more about comparisons of talents and
skills and abilities
> because for
> the most part we're all exactly the same as
regards to the
> equipment we use
> in our digital lives. The only remaining
combatant tribes are
> the Linux and
> Apple Mac's. And the battles waged between
them and the
> Wintel's are so
> pathetically anemic that it's hardly worth
mentioning.
>
> Sure, the 8-bit days are a bygone era, but what
an amazing time.
> As Mr.
> Burrell so adeptly captured the mentality of
engineers and
> hobbyists who
> took what in today's terms were nothing more
than thermostat
> controllers and
> turned them into fully functioning personal
computers. And
> consider how
> deeply involved one had to be in order to keep
up with this
> crazy idea. You
> had to know the intricate details of the sound
and graphics
> capabilities if
> you were ever to get anything out of them. And
this inevitably
> lead to
> discussions of comparisons. I never really
cared which computer
> supposedly
> had the best this or that since I could only
afford the one I
> had, but I did
> truly love to hear the tribal battles waged on
BBS's and in the
> classroom.
> These battles are no longer waged. BBS's are
gone as well. And
> the
> classroom is too busy screening for real
weapons and trying to
> separate real
> tribes from real war in our urban schools. But
that's a
> different story
> altogether.
>
> Few could afford more than one choice of
computer back then and
> those who
> could still chose a tribe for it's system's
advantages and
> capabilities. I
> was partial to Atari's myself but could never
afford them; hence
> the 2068.
> Not much of a comparison in my estimation, but
it was my wallet
> that made
> the choice for me starting back with the ZX81.
But I always
> found time to
> get acquainted with the Atari every time I
visited the local
> Sears.
>
> Today's tribes are more like lifestyle choices.
The Linux folks
> are mostly
> eggheads who like to tinker for free. The Mac
folks are
> basically
> disinterested in tinkering and just want a
pretty box that lets
> them write
> e-mail. And the Wintel folks are a bunch of
clones who think
> they're
> individually special because they use a
particular brand of
> video card.
> Pathetic. There's no room for comparison here,
much less for
> heated tribal
> debate. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
A Mac is an
> Apple, a Linux
> is an orange...and a Wintel is a rotten banana.
In the end
> nobody cares
> because it just doesn't matter anymore.
>
> So, Mr. Diffendaffer, by all means, please
defend your Atari and
> Commodore
> tribes to your heart's content. Although I
prefer to avoid
> anonymous verbal
> flaming, I honestly welcome the passion with
which you share
> your opinion.
> I'll stand corrected if it will make you feel
better.
>
> Oh, and as for the eZ80, I must agree it would
have changed the
> world of
> computing if it had come out in the late 80's,
but of course
> that's like
> saying the stealth fighter would have changed
the outcome of the
> Vietnam
> War. It should be no surprise to anyone that
Zilog, a
> manufacturer of
> micro-controllers in the 1980's is still a
manufacturer of
> micro-controllers
> today. The eZ80 is a really neat chip. I've
got a
> trainer/programmer
> collecting dust in my closet. Someday, if I
ever need a
> web-capable power
> switch for my crap Netgear router that keeps
inexplicably going
> for an
> out-of-body stroll, I'll break it out and get
busy building one.
> Until
> then...what's the point?
>
> 0 OK, O:1
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ts2068/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> [email]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ts2068/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
[email]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
5. Re: [ts2068] Digest Number 266
Jeff Burrell · Thu, 5 May 2005 17:37:
Digikey, a US electronics distributer, has EZ80 kits for sale for $99US. I bought one about 18 months ago and have messed around with it a little. The development kit comes with an EZ80 module with 512K of SRAM and flash memory with an ethernet connection on the board. It also has a protyping board that can be populated with 1.5MB more SRAM which I also purchased from Digikey for about $21 US. There are free development tools available - assembler, TCP/IP stack and a C compiler (I think).
I was contemplating turning it into a CP/M or Z-System device using my PC for the terminal and file server. Haven't gotten to it yet and may not until I retire :(
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!