One big mistake timex made...
16 messages · 2008-01-07 → 2008-01-08 · Yahoo Group era · View archive on archive.org
Participants: Adam Trionfo, Fred, Bill Loguidice, Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey, M. Emrah Oral, Glen Goodwin, Timex
Preserved from the Timex/Sinclair 2068 Yahoo Group (2001–2019), which is no longer online. Text reproduced from the archive.org archive; email addresses masked.
Messages
1. Re: One big mistake timex made...
Adam Trionfo · Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:50:
Glen Goodwin, on Mon 1/07/08 2:13 PM, wrote:
>>
What Timex really had was a computer division run by engineers instead of by marketing people.
>>
I'm not sure if you mean this in a bad way or not. It can't be run by EITHER. It needs to be run by someone with vision. The engineers and markering folks need to work for this person (or group of people).
>>
As fast as the market was evolving in those days, the eight month delay was in itself the kiss of death.
>>
I wonder what the heck was being worked on for eight months?
Adam
_________________________________________________________________
Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008
2. RE: One big mistake timex made...
Adam Trionfo · Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:12:
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey, on Mon 1/07/08 7:51 PM, wrote:
>>
And honestly, the future turned out to be cartridges with the Nintendo
consoles. It took the PlayStation to break the cartridge-based console.
>>
I still find it weird that the Nintendo DS doesn't use some sort of disc format. Those little carts are SO small!
>>
The C64 was initially a cartridge machine
>>
I used to have about sixty carts for that system. They were always, for me, the preferred method of playing games... until I discovered Fast Load by Epyx.
>>
The serial [port for the floppy] was to save money?
>>
Not exactly. It was supposed to be serial... but MUCH faster. There was some sort of design flaw that made it so that the designers had to use the slow method to get the machine out the door. It's in the book "On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" by Brian Bagnall (great book!).
>>
the 2068 machine still has a future, as long
people turn them on, and especially if new software is being written. I
see emulators out there, so it can't be totally dead.
>>
DO people write new software for the TS 2068? I know that there is a Spectrum scene, but I've never seen anything new for this system.
>>
I would love to use a microcomputer as a make-or-break developer test at work: So, you want to code here? Fine. Here's an 8-bit micro from the stack. Write something with that so we can see your mad skillz.
>>
Or, even better, get them to type fifty WPM on the TS 2068... that's certainly no easy task.
Adam
_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008
3. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Fred · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:37:
On 08/01/2008, at 16:12, Adam Trionfo wrote:
> Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey, on Mon 1/07/08 7:51 PM, wrote:
>>> the 2068 machine still has a future, as long
>>> people turn them on, and especially if new software is being
>>> written. I
>>> see emulators out there, so it can't be totally dead.
>
> DO people write new software for the TS 2068? I know that there is
> a Spectrum scene, but I've never seen anything new for this system.
The emulators are being written by curious Spectrum owners who would
like to know what could have been, and to discover what they may have
missed.
There is a large project aimed at a heavily-modified PAL TC2068, the
Spectrum SE underway.
There is also the Spritelib written to allow quick game development,
but if you want TS-exclusive software, I don't know of any being
written.
IMO for games, the TS isn't different enough from the Spectrum to
attract distinct development, though the TS would be a great target
for a adventure with location graphics using both the hicolor and hi-
res modes in split screen, and appropriate mass-storage for the pics.
Fred
4. RE: One big mistake timex made...
Adam Trionfo · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:09:
Bill Loguidice, on Tue 1/08/08 8:21 AM, wrote:
>>
I also have to disagree about the "Eurosofts" being ALL the rage
>>
I owned my first C64/C128 from about 1983-1989. This is when I did most of my games purchasing. I also used to buy each issue of Compute's Gazette (and sometimes Run) magazine. While I was aware of the existence of games from Europe, most games seemed to be from the U.S. While I did have some games that were copied, I wasn't into any type of scene, nor did I call BBSs. So, for me, this "Eurosoft" game statement seems untrue. HOWEVER, I know that scenes depend on what your into, and the company that you keep. It could be VERY true that for some hardcore users, it was the games from Europe that seemed best and most popular. The only games from Europe that I can remember making a blip on the C64 radar, to me, in the 1980's was Manic Minor (a ZX Spectrum port!) and Elite.
The "Eurosoft" scene was probably much bigger for TS 2068. From the small amount of newsletters that I've seen for the system, as well as some magazines that I've "flipped" through (online), their are more ads and reviews for European games. I suspect this is because the machine has roots in England and that this was really the only source for quality games (using a Spectrum emulator). Am I right?
>>
The future may have turned out to be cartridges on the console side, but certainly not so on the computer side.
>>
True. While I DID like the idea of cartridges back in the 80's, I always bought the disk version of a game because it was cheaper. It wasn't until I started collecting games for the C64 that I had more than a handful of cartridges.
>>
And yes, the C-64's 1541 disk drive may have been slow, but it was nowhere near as slow as a cassette drive>>
Correct. The LONGEST games that I can remember loading took about two minutes with the 1541 disk drive. I understand that late games could take twenty minutes or longer to load. The C64 Fast load cartridge cut loading times, it seems to me, to about 1/4 the usual amount of time. When I used to use my C128 in 128-mode (before I knew ANYTHING about the Fast Load cartridge) with my 1571 drive (a drive that was compatible with the older 1541) the load times were about seven times faster than the C64. I loved programming in C128 mode (not that I knew much about programming-- I mostly typed-in games) and I always wished that more games had been released for the C128 if for no other reason than to take advantage of the faster drive.
What were the wait times for the TS 2068 disk drives?
Adam
_________________________________________________________________
Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause
5. Software prices
M. Emrah Oral · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:22:
Does anybody remember how much an average 2068 game cost on tape / cartridge? I understand that Americans didn't like using cassettes as data storage but were cartridges too expensive to become the standard (piracy proof too) software distribution medium? Oh, also, I was wondering if it would be possible to make a read/write capable cartridge, where the user could write data into the [battery backed-up or non-volatile] cartridge. Rather like using a USB disk or an SD card for storage, rather then a audio cassettes. I wonder how cartridge software prices compared to diskette software for the 2068 or even the C64.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
6. DivIDE interface
M. Emrah Oral · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:27:
I think the DivIDE interface is 100% compatible with the 2068. If someone writes a special firmware for the DivIDE to include the original ZX Spectrum ROM code too and page it in when requested, the 2068 could have a bootup menu like that of the ZX Spectrum 128 / +2 / +3 where the user could choose between using the machine as a ZX Spectrum, A 2068 and even a ZX Spectrum 128 now that DivIDE contains 512K memory. Add to that the capability of being able to load any ZX Spectrum snapshot file (SNA/Z80/TAP/TZX) instantly off of a CF card, you would have this dream 2068 which could run any one of the 1000s of spectrum games at the touch of a NMI button :)
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
7. RE: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Bill Loguidice · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:29:
That's a telling statement, "It could be VERY true that for some hardcore
users, it was the games from Europe that seemed best and most popular."
Systems like the C-64 or Atari 8-bit or any other popular system could be
complemented by software from other markets, but didn't need it as a primary
software resource. A system like the TS 2068 - out of necessity - would
need software from anywhere in the world it could be supplied from, both due
to its short lifespan and initial reliance on first party software (the
first party software thing was true of nearly every computer system released
- the ones that were most successful soon broke from those relative shackles
though into a wide range of third party support).
It's interesting that of the modest commercial TS 2068 software collection I
have, outside of first party Timex stuff, the rest more or less comes from
Quicksilva, which was a British company that was already supporting the
Spectrum (and other systems like the C-64) and was making its foray into the
US market.
As for loading times, I can't recall any disk game on the C-64 ever taking
more than about 5 minutes to initially load (and probably that's pushing it
by a minute or two), even without assistance, whereas cassettes could take
20 minutes or more. And it's interesting that you mention the Commodore
128, as there were only a handful of titles released specifically for it in
the US that weren't productivity-based. The European market helps again, as
I recently procured two C-128-specific games from the UK, one on disk and
the other on cassette. It's a similar situation with C-16/Plus/4 software -
you really have to turn to Europe for decent software support as the US
received very little, particularly in regards to games. Thank goodness for
the Internet and access to the world as a collector, otherwise things would
be infinitely more difficult...
=================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
http://www.armchairarcade.com
A PC Magazine Top 100 Website
=================================
-----Original Message-----
From: [email] [mailto:[email]] On Behalf Of
Adam Trionfo
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:10 PM
To: TS 2068 Yahoogroup
Subject: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Bill Loguidice, on Tue 1/08/08 8:21 AM, wrote:
>>
I also have to disagree about the "Eurosofts" being ALL the rage
>>
I owned my first C64/C128 from about 1983-1989. This is when I did most of
my games purchasing. I also used to buy each issue of Compute's Gazette
(and sometimes Run) magazine. While I was aware of the existence of games
from Europe, most games seemed to be from the U.S. While I did have some
games that were copied, I wasn't into any type of scene, nor did I call
BBSs. So, for me, this "Eurosoft" game statement seems untrue. HOWEVER, I
know that scenes depend on what your into, and the company that you keep.
It could be VERY true that for some hardcore users, it was the games from
Europe that seemed best and most popular. The only games from Europe that I
can remember making a blip on the C64 radar, to me, in the 1980's was Manic
Minor (a ZX Spectrum port!) and Elite.
The "Eurosoft" scene was probably much bigger for TS 2068. From the small
amount of newsletters that I've seen for the system, as well as some
magazines that I've "flipped" through (online), their are more ads and
reviews for European games. I suspect this is because the machine has roots
in England and that this was really the only source for quality games (using
a Spectrum emulator). Am I right?
>>
The future may have turned out to be cartridges on the console side, but
certainly not so on the computer side.
>>
True. While I DID like the idea of cartridges back in the 80's, I always
bought the disk version of a game because it was cheaper. It wasn't until I
started collecting games for the C64 that I had more than a handful of
cartridges.
>>
And yes, the C-64's 1541 disk drive may have been slow, but it was nowhere
near as slow as a cassette drive>>
Correct. The LONGEST games that I can remember loading took about two
minutes with the 1541 disk drive. I understand that late games could take
twenty minutes or longer to load. The C64 Fast load cartridge cut loading
times, it seems to me, to about 1/4 the usual amount of time. When I used
to use my C128 in 128-mode (before I knew ANYTHING about the Fast Load
cartridge) with my 1571 drive (a drive that was compatible with the older
1541) the load times were about seven times faster than the C64. I loved
programming in C128 mode (not that I knew much about programming-- I mostly
typed-in games) and I always wished that more games had been released for
the C128 if for no other reason than to take advantage of the faster drive.
What were the wait times for the TS 2068 disk drives?
Adam
_________________________________________________________________
Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause
Yahoo! Groups Links
8. RE: [ts2068] Software prices
Bill Loguidice · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:37:
Well, cartridges weren't necessarily piracy-proof, though that was
ultimately the most average-user copying averse option of the day I have
simple software utilities for my C-64 and Coleco Adam for instance that make
it a snap to dump cartridges to another medium. It's a shame that Timex
didn't release more of its software on cartridge (only a few titles), as
they're rarely seen in comparison to the tapes. In fact, I don't even have
one cartridge in my collection - they're all tapes. Cassettes - even though
they could be copied to another tape - obviously didn't survive generational
copying well, whereas disks rarely introduced errors when continuously
copied.
I don't see a technical reason why you couldn't have a battery backed
read/write cartridge. Top of my head, the TI-99/4a had one (I have one
myself) and Sony and others made them for MSX systems.
=================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
<http://www.armchairarcade.com/> http://www.armchairarcade.com
A PC Magazine Top 100 Website
=================================
_____
From: [email] [mailto:[email]] On Behalf Of M.
Emrah Oral
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:22 PM
To: [email]
Subject: [ts2068] Software prices
Does anybody remember how much an average 2068 game cost on tape /
cartridge? I understand that Americans didn't like using cassettes as data
storage but were cartridges too expensive to become the standard (piracy
proof too) software distribution medium? Oh, also, I was wondering if it
would be possible to make a read/write capable cartridge, where the user
could write data into the [battery backed-up or non-volatile] cartridge.
Rather like using a USB disk or an SD card for storage, rather then a audio
cassettes. I wonder how cartridge software prices compared to diskette
software for the 2068 or even the C64.
_____
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your homepage.
9. RE: One big mistake timex made...
Glen Goodwin · Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:27
Adam Trionfo wrote:
> What were the wait times for the TS 2068 disk drives?
About 3-5 seconds using an Oliger drive i/f.
Glen
10. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Fred · Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:31:
On 09/01/2008, at 7:29, Bill Loguidice wrote:
> As for loading times, I can't recall any disk game on the C-64 ever
> taking
> more than about 5 minutes to initially load (and probably that's
> pushing it
> by a minute or two), even without assistance, whereas cassettes
> could take
> 20 minutes or more.
A typical early 48k Spectrum tape game using the stock ROM code would
take up to 5 minutes to load from tape (e.g. Ant Attack 3:49), later
fast loading tape software was approximately 3 minutes (e.g. Knight
Lore 2:55).
Fred
11. RE: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Bill Loguidice · Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:04:
I was talking more in the C-64 world, where, if I recall correctly, Cosmi’s
Caverns of Khafka took around 20 minutes or so. I suppose it depends on a
variety of factors (and system), including game size (I must say, I was
stunned when I got a copy of The Bard’s Tale on cassette from England – a
game I never would have thought would have been possible on the format!).
Obviously the big downside with cassettes are the lack of convenient data
multi-loads, though obviously they were done. Of course, as a collector, I
love some of the older software cassettes, especially ones like the Avalon
Hill bookshelf boxes that could have half a dozen formats on one cassette or
more (Commodore PET, TRS-80 Model I, Apple II, Atari 8-bit, Vic 20, C-64,
etc.)…
=================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
(A PC Magazine Top 100 Website)
http://www.armchairarcade.com
=================================
From: [email] [mailto:[email]] On Behalf Of
Fred
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 5:31 PM
To: [email]
Subject: Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
On 09/01/2008, at 7:29, Bill Loguidice wrote:
> As for loading times, I can't recall any disk game on the C-64 ever
> taking
> more than about 5 minutes to initially load (and probably that's
> pushing it
> by a minute or two), even without assistance, whereas cassettes
> could take
> 20 minutes or more.
A typical early 48k Spectrum tape game using the stock ROM code would
take up to 5 minutes to load from tape (e.g. Ant Attack 3:49), later
fast loading tape software was approximately 3 minutes (e.g. Knight
Lore 2:55).
Fred
12. Re: [ts2068] Software prices
Timex · Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:08:
> It's a shame that Timex didn't release more of its software on
> cartridge (only a few titles), as they're rarely seen in comparison
> to the tapes. In fact, I don't even have one cartridge in my
> collection - they're all tapes. Cassettes - even though they could
> be copied to another tape - obviously didn't survive generational
> copying well, whereas disks rarely introduced errors when
> continuously copied.
True. Only 8 cartridges for TS2068. 4 not released (giving a total of
12).
From the 8, I have 4.
And in Portugal I have found 2 Timex cartridges for TS1000/TS1500!!
Timex only published 4.
Je
13. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey · Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:44
On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 16:37 +1100, Fred wrote:
> IMO for games, the TS isn't different enough
> from the Spectrum to attract distinct development,
> though the TS would be a great target for a adventure
> with location graphics using both the hicolor and
> hi-res modes in split screen, and appropriate
> mass-storage for the pics.
Interesting... those are always fun!
Why not write it?
I can definitely help point you to references
on microcomputer adventure design and such.
Also, check out what was possible in 8K on the
Tandy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggorath
That sounds like what you are describing, to me.
>
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
Well begun is half done.
-- Aristotle
14. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey · Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:18
On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:12 -0800, Adam Trionfo wrote:
> >>
> the 2068 machine still has a future, as long
> people turn them on, and especially if new software is being written. I
> see emulators out there, so it can't be totally dead.
> >>
>
> DO people write new software for the TS 2068?
> I know that there is a Spectrum scene, but I've never
> seen anything new for this system.
Well... that sounds like you've found a niche to fill? *grin*
Sure, anyone with an emulator or a bootable TS2068 can
write new code for it.
If you don't know Z80 assembly, so what? Learn it.
Assembly only looks scary.
Get, or write, a Macro Assembler.
The Macro capability means you can assign names to
things, and use them in place of the thing (and more).
For example, let's say to turn the screen black you poke
a value into a specific register.
In assembly, you might (beware, made up example!):
LDA #0 ; load a zero value into the CPU accumulator register
STA $FE80 ; store whatever is in the accumulator into memory FE80.
With a macroassembler, you can assign the word "black" to
a value of zero, and FE80 to "background".
Then, the assembly looks like:
LDA black ;
STA $background ;
This is infinitely much easier and faster to read
six months later without a lot of crossreference.
Plus, macrolibs are generally reusable, making more
assembly easier to write.
Pick anything out there that you are real familiar
with, and go crazy converting it to TS2068. Build a
macro library along the way, as you learn the hardware
and fixed values for things. Macro libraries make
disassembler much more readable too. That's the first
two things I want to find or build for the 2068.
Me, I have to fix the noisy video on mine before I could
stand to look at it long enough to code. The downside of
plugging retro-gear in after using a duallink
state-of-the-art flatpanel.
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
"Call me stupid [ Chorus: "You're stupid, Linus" ], but I
actually compiled
and booted this remotely."
- Linus
15. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Fred · Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:24:
On 09/01/2008, at 13:44, Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 16:37 +1100, Fred wrote:
>> IMO for games, the TS isn't different enough
>> from the Spectrum to attract distinct development,
>> though the TS would be a great target for a adventure
>> with location graphics using both the hicolor and
>> hi-res modes in split screen, and appropriate
>> mass-storage for the pics.
>
> Interesting... those are always fun!
> Why not write it?
> I can definitely help point you to references
> on microcomputer adventure design and such.
My programming time is spent on an emulator to allow people to play
these games without original hardware. Maybe when that is finished
(but I've been working on it for 9 years, so don't hold your breath!).
> Also, check out what was possible in 8K on the
> Tandy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggorath
> That sounds like what you are describing, to me.
>>
I mean something more like <http://www.aptanet.org/eightyone/images/pic7.gif
>.
Fred
16. Re: [ts2068] RE: One big mistake timex made...
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey · Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:41
On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 14:24 +1100, Fred wrote:
> My programming time is spent on an emulator to
> allow people to play these games without original
> hardware. Maybe when that is finished (but I've
> been working on it for 9 years, so don't hold your
>breath!).
Awesome! Writing emulators is (to me) one of the
highest forms of software art around: you recreate
hardware in software, requiring an understanding
of the source that is sometimes equal to the original
designers'. Hardware, engineered in software, is
one of the best forms of software engineering possible,
IMO.
> > Also, check out what was possible in 8K on the
> > Tandy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggorath
> > That sounds like what you are describing, to me.
> >>
>
> I mean something more like
> <http://www.aptanet.org/eightyone/images/pic7.gif
> >.
Also good! Or even combine them... a painted backdrop
with animated sprite sections over it and the text
window at the bottom. <wanders off spewing tons of
feature creep suggestions>
--
Robert "Exile In Paradise" Murphey
Now I'm being INVOLUNTARILY shuffled closer to the CLAM DIP
with the BROKEN PLASTIC FORKS in it!!
Indexed under
TS2068 / TC2068 · Disk & floppy systems (Larken, AERCO, Oliger) · Pico / modern interfaces (UnoDos, etc.) · For sale, wanted & collections