What if Timex stayed in the market
21 messages · 2012-07-22 → 2012-08-22 · Yahoo Group era · View archive on archive.org
Participants: Marvio Santos, Emucompboy, Bill Loguidice, Mark Scheck, jdiffendaffer, Al Hartman, William McBrine, Mark, Oscar Arthur Koepke, Peter, frenchcanadianflyfishing, zxspectrum128
Preserved from the Timex/Sinclair 2068 Yahoo Group (2001–2019), which is no longer online. Text reproduced from the archive.org archive; email addresses masked.
Messages
1. What if Timex stayed in the market
Mark · Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:14
I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but wonder what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years. The Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
2. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Emucompboy · Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:52
Sinclair produced another couple of similar z80 based computers, and then made the 68008-based Sinclair QL.
--- In [email], "Mark" <markscheck@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but wonder what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years. The Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
> Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
>
3. Re: [ts2068] What if Timex stayed in the market
Bill Loguidice · Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:27
I do agree that the Timex Sinclair 1500 and 2068 were attractive machines.
The keyboards were what they were, but certainly aesthetically overall it
was right up there in looks, particularly when compared with some of the
other mass market machines. As was mentioned, Sinclair continued on their
own outside of Timex with the ill-fated QL, which itself was no slouch in
the looks department. Top of my head, I'm thinking the original Macintosh
and QL, which were released around roughly the same time, were the two last
really striking looking mainstream consumer systems until relatively
recently. Certainly some of the others weren't ugly, but they didn't
exactly break new design ground. Today, we can look to systems like the
MacBook Air and a select few Ultrabooks for a modern equivalent of striking
computer case design...
===================================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director; Armchair Arcade,
Inc.<http://www.armchairarcade.com>
===================================================
Authored Books<http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Loguidice/e/B001U7W3YS/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_1>and
Film <http://www.armchairarcade.com/film>; About me and other ways to get
in touch <http://about.me/billloguidice>
===================================================
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Mark <[email]> wrote:
> **
>
>
> I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but wonder
> what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years. The
> Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
> Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
>
>
>
4. Re: [ts2068] What if Timex stayed in the market
Mark Scheck · Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:08
Bill,
You're absolutely correct about the Mac and QL. The original Mac I believe was designed by FROG Design. I wonder if the Timex 1500 and 2068 were designed by Timex computer or Timex Corp. in Waterbury CT. Obviously the QL was Sinclair Research. Though I don't think the ZX80, ZX81 or Spectrums would win any design awards.
The weight of the 2068 compared to Commodore 64 is better as is the general look, I think Commodore switching to a floopy drive system faster probably was a factor as was Timex dropping out fairly quickly.
________________________________
From: Bill Loguidice <[email]>
To: [email]
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ts2068] What if Timex stayed in the market
I do agree that the Timex Sinclair 1500 and 2068 were attractive machines. The keyboards were what they were, but certainly aesthetically overall it was right up there in looks, particularly when compared with some of the other mass market machines. As was mentioned, Sinclair continued on their own outside of Timex with the ill-fated QL, which itself was no slouch in the looks department. Top of my head, I'm thinking the original Macintosh and QL, which were released around roughly the same time, were the two last really striking looking mainstream consumer systems until relatively recently. Certainly some of the others weren't ugly, but they didn't exactly break new design ground. Today, we can look to systems like the MacBook Air and a select few Ultrabooks for a modern equivalent of striking computer case design...
===================================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director; Armchair Arcade, Inc.
===================================================
Authored Books and Film; About me and other ways to get in touch
===================================================
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Mark <[email]> wrote:
>
>I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but wonder what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years. The Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
>Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
>
>
5. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Bill Loguidice · Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:56
With the benefit of hindsight, there was little any of Commodore's
competitors could have done on the low end in North America. Commodore had
an unbeatable supply chain advantage, giving them both a powerful computer
in the C-64 with few relative flaws and, within a few years of its release,
a super low price that was impossible for the competition to match. All of
its competitors were playing for the remaining scraps. The number one
selling personal computer from 1977 until the start of the decade was the
TRS-80, followed by the TI-99/4a for a short time, but neither was able to
achieve a critical mass to ward off interest in the C-64. Atari should have
dominated with their early relative release of the powerful 400 and 800
computers, but their closed approach to external development and middling
price points didn't do them any favors. By the time they started to get
their acts together with the XL series, it was already too late to stop
Commodore's momentum. Timex had some success with the low price of the
1000, but it was not enough of a computer I'd say to stop many purchasers
from having buyer's regret. Perhaps it's fair to say that by the time of
the 2068's release, Timex's brand was a bit tarnished as a result, added to
the fact that they were already a weakened company by then. Anyway, always
interesting stuff to discuss...
===================================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director; Armchair Arcade,
Inc.<http://www.armchairarcade.com>
===================================================
Authored Books<http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Loguidice/e/B001U7W3YS/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_1>and
Film <http://www.armchairarcade.com/film>; About me and other ways to get
in touch <http://about.me/billloguidice>
===================================================
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:18 PM, jdiffendaffer <[email]>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email], "Mark" <markscheck@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but
> wonder what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years.
> The Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
> > Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
>
> I think if the 1500 had been their first machine instead of the finicky
> 1000, they would have had a chance. The 1000 was a bit of a love it or hate
> it machine and alienating some of their first customers certainly didn't
> help.
>
> Ultimately, the 2068 needed to be out a year sooner and with a regular
> keyboard. Every US computer with a chicklet keyboard failed or was replaced
> by a model with a better keyboard.
>
> I don't think Timex had a lot of money to spare by the time the 2068 was
> released so if for no other reason the 2068 needed released sooner.
>
>
>
6. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Al Hartman · Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:05
Back in the early 80’s before the dominance of the IBM PC in business and
the Mac in publishing, the market was pretty well split up between TRS-80's
and Apples in business and education, and Commodore 64's at home.
ZX-81 kits were used to teach basic electronics skills and simple computing
at trade schools. The TS-1000 computers were sold in drug stores or given
away as premiums when you went to go see a time share lecture. They were
also sold in Popular Electronics magazine.
The 2068 was never widely advertised, and because it wasn't 100% compatible
with the Spectrum couldn't leverage the large Spectrum library of games and
other software.
Zebra got most of it's Timex products from closeout warehouses that bought
unsold merchandise from the chain stores. And books similarly.
I had a TRS-80 Model I in 1979, and then an Atari 400 in 1982 along with a
Coco, and later an Amiga 500 and an Atari-ST. But, I didn't have a C-64
until just this year.
What drove computer adoption back then was software. There used to be
magazines where games were published and you would type them in. I spent a
lot of time typing in games on my TRS-80.
If the 2068 had been the Spectrum+ here in the U.S., it would have done much
better.
Al
7. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
jdiffendaffer · Tue, 24 Jul 2012 02:18
--- In [email], "Mark" <markscheck@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at incredible design of the 2068, and I can't help but wonder what they would have produced if they stayed a couple more years. The Atari's and Commodores were ugly machines compared to the 1500 and 2068.
> Also is there any LED mods to see when it has power?
I think if the 1500 had been their first machine instead of the finicky 1000, they would have had a chance. The 1000 was a bit of a love it or hate it machine and alienating some of their first customers certainly didn't help.
Ultimately, the 2068 needed to be out a year sooner and with a regular keyboard. Every US computer with a chicklet keyboard failed or was replaced by a model with a better keyboard.
I don't think Timex had a lot of money to spare by the time the 2068 was released so if for no other reason the 2068 needed released sooner.
8. RE: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Marvio Santos · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:08
Had you given it more then a 5 minute chance, you would have had find out that it becomes second nature, and after some time you can actually type a program faster like that then you could spelling out every word, specially on the old chiclet keyboards. Of course nowadays it would work at all, you could never fit keywords in keyboards for the vast amount of commands one can do, but back then, it was quite the elegant solution, I always though...
To: [email]
From: [email]
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:04:53 +0000
Subject: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
9. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
William McBrine · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:57
This. I'd also add that the 2068's keyboard was a lot better than other
chicklet keyboards of the time, like the one on the original TRS-80 Color
Computer.
Interesting that chicklet keyboards have made a comeback lately, via Apple
and its copycats.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Marvio Santos <[email]>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Had you given it more then a 5 minute chance, you would have had find out
> that it becomes second nature, and after some time you can actually type a
> program faster like that then you could spelling out every word, specially
> on the old chiclet keyboards. Of course nowadays it would work at all, you
> could never fit keywords in keyboards for the vast amount of commands one
> can do, but back then, it was quite the elegant solution, I always though...
>
> ------------------------------
> To: [email]
> From: [email]
> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:04:53 +0000
> Subject: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
>
>
>
>
> While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other
> advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
>
> They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
>
> With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword.
> Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a
> magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You
> had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was
> in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
>
> Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a
> corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel
> Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least
> you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
>
>
>
>
10. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Al Hartman · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:22
The Coco keyboard was MUCH better than the TS-2068 keyboard. It was larger,
and the keys were more widely spaced.
The modern keyboards you call "chicklet" are nothing like the TI-99, Coco or
TS/TC 2068 keyboards.
Al
From: William McBrine
This. I'd also add that the 2068's keyboard was a lot better than other
chicklet keyboards of the time, like the one on the original TRS-80 Color
Computer.
Interesting that chicklet keyboards have made a comeback lately, via Apple
and its copycats.
11. RE: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Marvio Santos · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:34
Ha! I had the exact same though when I first saw the apples start to use them! :) They are sooo modern (facepalm), of course because of how trendy Apple is now, everybody has to copy them (bigger facepalm); Whatcha gonna do? :)
To: [email]
From: [email]
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:57:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
This. I'd also add that the 2068's keyboard was a lot better than other chicklet keyboards of the time, like the one on the original TRS-80 Color Computer.
Interesting that chicklet keyboards have made a comeback lately, via Apple and its copycats.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Marvio Santos <[email]> wrote:
Had you given it more then a 5 minute chance, you would have had find out that it becomes second nature, and after some time you can actually type a program faster like that then you could spelling out every word, specially on the old chiclet keyboards. Of course nowadays it would work at all, you could never fit keywords in keyboards for the vast amount of commands one can do, but back then, it was quite the elegant solution, I always though...
To: [email]
From: [email]
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:04:53 +0000
Subject: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
12. RE: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Marvio Santos · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:36
You're correct, they aren't, but they are sure as hell not as nice as a full travel keyboard, and the keys do get stuck from time to time, even on the apple products; Regardless, it's the same idea, just being touted as brand new (giant facepalm)
> To: [email]
> From: [email]
> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:22:01 -0400
> Subject: Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
>
> The Coco keyboard was MUCH better than the TS-2068 keyboard. It was larger,
> and the keys were more widely spaced.
>
> The modern keyboards you call "chicklet" are nothing like the TI-99, Coco or
> TS/TC 2068 keyboards.
>
> Al
>
> From: William McBrine
>
> This. I'd also add that the 2068's keyboard was a lot better than other
> chicklet keyboards of the time, like the one on the original TRS-80 Color
> Computer.
>
> Interesting that chicklet keyboards have made a comeback lately, via Apple
> and its copycats.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
13. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
William McBrine · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:58
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Al Hartman <[email]> wrote:
> The Coco keyboard was MUCH better than the TS-2068 keyboard. It was larger,
> and the keys were more widely spaced.
Um, no. I owned both, typed on both, and the CoCo keyboard was
terrible. Size was irrelevant considering how often the keys stuck.
This is only the chicklet keyboard I'm talking about. Later CoCos got
upgraded keyboards.
14. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Emucompboy · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:04
While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
15. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Mark Scheck · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:39
I been using the keyboard alot in an emulator lately. Once you start figuring it out, it actually goes fairly fast.
I think it's brilliant how much basic they got in there. Remember it was designed in 1983. Great machine for the time.
16. RE: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Marvio Santos · Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:32
Actually the keyboard layout idea was designed for the ZX80 in 1980! :) It was a very elegant solution to a big problem of how to fit basic in a tiny rom, and because of that and other ideas keeping the machine cheap.
To: [email]
From: [email]
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:39:21 -0700
Subject: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
I been using the keyboard alot in an emulator lately. Once you start figuring it out, it actually goes fairly fast. I think it's brilliant how much basic they got in there. Remember it was designed in 1983. Great machine for the time.
17. Re: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Oscar Arthur Koepke · Tue, 31 Jul 2012 05:53
Actualy was 1982(ZXSpectrum was supose to be named ZX82color) and 2068 was a kind of upgrade from him.
Oscar
________________________________
From: Mark Scheck <[email]>
To: "[email]" <[email]>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:39 PM
Subject: [ts2068] Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
I been using the keyboard alot in an emulator lately. Once you start figuring it out, it actually goes fairly fast.
I think it's brilliant how much basic they got in there. Remember it was designed in 1983. Great machine for the time.
18. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
Peter · Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:09
I found having the keywords on the keys made learning to program a lot easier. It was hard to make syntax errors when the computer knew what it was expecting.
-- Peter.
--- In [email], "Emucompboy" <emucompboy@...> wrote:
>
>
> While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
>
> They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
>
> With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
>
> Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
>
19. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
frenchcanadianflyfishing · Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:12
Having started with a ZX81, I had not only accepted the fact that small form machines demand a small form keyboard, I had got used to the "shortcut" technique once I finally graduated to a 2068. I thought the system was pretty clever. Like Peter pointed out, the auto-correction was a neat feature.
Stephen Young
--- In [email], "Peter" <peterholthoffman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I found having the keywords on the keys made learning to program a lot easier. It was hard to make syntax errors when the computer knew what it was expecting.
>
> -- Peter.
>
> --- In [email], "Emucompboy" <emucompboy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
> >
> > They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
> >
> > With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
> >
> > Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
> >
>
20. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
jdiffendaffer · Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:02
Any good touch typist could type in a listing from a magazine faster without keywords programmed to the keys. Even in high school I got so I could type 60+ words / minute but since most machines of the day used polling, a character would get skipped every now and then if you typed too fast and you had to be paying attention to what you were typing.
FWIW, the Apple II's have a dedicated keyboard chip and a key buffer so it doesn't have issues with dropped characters.
The chicklet keyboard on my CoCo slowed my typing a bit and I had to disassemble and clean the keyboard regularly to keep the keys from sticking. If the holes for the keys in the black plastic had been slightly larger (looser tolerances), it would have been faster to type on and wouldn't have required so much maintenance. I replaced my CoCo keyboard with an aftermarket model as soon as they came out.
I don't think people notice issues with the TS2068 so much because you aren't typing that fast and typing is a bit more deliberate picking keywords. The keys aren't as sticky as the CoCo but it's certainly no better for touch typing.
The "melted" keyboard that later CoCos had was more like modern chicklet keyboards and my old Gateway laptop had very similar keycaps. My current HP has keycaps like the new Mac laptops but I don't have any trouble with it. It's not as fast as the old clicky IBM keyboards but not bad.
--- In [email], Marvio Santos <marvcoolness@...> wrote:
>
>
> Had you given it more then a 5 minute chance, you would have had find out that it becomes second nature, and after some time you can actually type a program faster like that then you could spelling out every word, specially on the old chiclet keyboards. Of course nowadays it would work at all, you could never fit keywords in keyboards for the vast amount of commands one can do, but back then, it was quite the elegant solution, I always though...
>
21. Re: What if Timex stayed in the market
zxspectrum128 · Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:13
A few Spectrum replacement ROMs were released in the past few years which allow you to type keywords letter by letter, just as you would do in other computers. SE Basic is my favorite. It also lets you use the cursors to go up and down when editing a line, rather than having to go left and right only.
--- In [email], "Emucompboy" <emucompboy@...> wrote:
>
>
> While we're talking about the keyboard of buttons, there was one other advantage most of the other computer keyboards had.
>
> They had letters on them. You could actually use them to type programs.
>
> With the TS2068, you had to look among the key labels for the keyword. Then it would go into another mode. You couldn't just type a program from a magazine, right after you'd opened the box and set up your computer. You had to get used to hunt/pecking the keyboard and knowing what mode it was in which determined what happened with the next key you pressed.
>
> Too painful for me. The TS2068 went back into the box and shoved into a corner. I spent more time playing with the Radio Shack MC-10 and Mattel Aquarius. The Aquarius had a notoriously bad chiclet keyboard, but at least you could type letters on the d--ned thing.
>